Strict Standards: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected 'America/New_York' for 'EDT/-4.0/DST' instead in /homepages/15/d238775290/htdocs/archive.calmchaosonline.com/site/viewtopic.php on line 995

Strict Standards: getdate(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected 'America/New_York' for 'EDT/-4.0/DST' instead in /homepages/15/d238775290/htdocs/archive.calmchaosonline.com/site/viewtopic.php on line 995
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4319: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /viewtopic.php:995)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4321: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /viewtopic.php:995)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4322: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /viewtopic.php:995)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4323: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /viewtopic.php:995)
Calm Chaos • View topic - Disbelief
Login 

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:41 am 
Offline
Keeper of the Calm
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:27 am
Posts: 833
Location: OZ!
Medals: 3
Co-Founder (1)

3 Year Medal (1)

1 Million Medal (1)
susan wrote:
Knightmare wrote:
Hmm....

I understand your idea, Enigma.

The problem, as I see it, is that everyone has had their thinking steered in one way or another.

The public schools here ( at least the ones that I went to ) were big on making a kid show the work that they did to solve a problem. If that work wasn't done in exactly the way they were told that it should be done, the kid got the problem wrong. I had that happen hundreds of times when I was in school. I would come up with the correct answer, but the way I came up with it wasn't the " correct " way. When it was marked as wrong, I would fight it by asking them why. When they said that I didn't do it the right way, I simply told them that if I didn't do it the right way, I wouldn't have gotten the correct answer. lol

The same kind of thing applies to children of parents of faith. The parents may not flat out tell the child that they HAVE to believe in God, but they do try to steer the way the child thinks about such things. Parents want to do what they feel is right for their child. In most cases, they feel that what is right for them, is right for the child as well.

I am having a bit of trouble clarifying what I am trying to say, so if it seems a bit muddled, please forgive me...lol



I agree with you totally that everyone has had their thinking steered in one way or another. Many adults who take up a religion 'voluntarily' think they have done it of their own free will. I am not so sure just how much free will we possess. As we tend to be products of our culture we can take on, quite subconsciously, many aspects of our native culture.
'Force' or 'coercion,' therefore, on someone's beliefs or outlook can be achieved very indirectly.
Say for example, that a certain society bans Christianity but allows Islam to flourish, or censors certain reading materials. They may not be forcing anyone to adhere to Islam but they simply take any alternative options away. Therefore, if someone in that society does decide take up a religion, it would very likely be Islam since that might be the only option open to them. This is coercion by stealth, surely. People might think they have free will, but in fact their actions and beliefs are being manipulated without their realising it.

As to your problem at school, I can see now why Einstein dropped out. They probably would have taken away his ability to think.


@KM

Yeah, i see your point re education and upbringing. I guess parents try to 'instill their values' so it were into their children. This may include, religious belief, morals, prejudice, inclusive of falsehoods and truths (or agreed truths). All of this along with the 'local culture' (their immediate social/cultural environment) would shape the outcome. The question of free will (as Susan put it) does become very subjective and perhaps not freewill at all.

@Susan

If the person spends time outside their local environment they may perhaps see a different picture if they have the ability to reflect on what they know to be true (or accepted truth).

This brings me back to 'critical thinking'. People can have devout faith (devoid of critical thinking) and yet have very good critical thinking skills. I was once presented by an argument from Chucky on the fact that science promotes critical thinking etc etc and that stops people from making 'big mistakes' like trusting a used car sales man (this was the example he gave). I returned the argument explaining that i know people that are very shrewd business people (would never get shafted by a used car sales man because they would not believe what he says - i.e. are critical of him) yet believe what their astrologer or palm reader tells them! LOL....

This brings me to the point that critical thinking and religion are mutually exclusive. Its like religious belief has 'special place' in some peoples minds (certainly not all) and well how does this special place get 'created'. Perhaps it is upbringing/nurture....??? or perhaps something entirely different....

_________________
Belief gets in the way of learning.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:41 am 
Offline
Chaotic Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:31 am
Posts: 2354
Medals: 3
CC Team Member (1)

3 Year Medal (1)

1 Million Medal (1)
Knightmare wrote:
My grades were not even close to what it would take. I have spoken to an admissions person at a couple of the JUCOs and there is just WAY too much stuff that I would have to make up.

I will make another thread. Any suggestions as to what section to put it under??? lol


Either general chat or an entirely new thread about "Higher Education"?

One option is taking a bit of time for yourself and doing some of that stuff you'd have to catch up on online, making sure the credits would transfer to any of the places you might wish to go to once you'd start attending in person.

(On that note, you might want to look at which of these places has a larger/better(?) non-traditional student population. It sucks being 38 and having so many youngun's around sometimes.)

What are JUCOs? Junior colleges?

I taught at a community college in NY State from 1991-96. It was the start of my career. I was 23 when I started. I had students that were 18, 25, 40, 50 ... .

_________________
Image
Dark-no-no.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:45 am 
Offline
Keeper of the Calm
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:27 am
Posts: 4995
Medals: 3
Founder (1)

3 Year Medal (1)

750k Medal (1)
Quote:
This brings me to the point that critical thinking and religion are mutually exclusive. Its like religious belief has 'special place' in some peoples minds (certainly not all) and well how does this special place get 'created'. Perhaps it is upbringing/nurture....??? or perhaps something entirely different....


That would beg the question....

Who exactly told the ancients that Thunder was a God, or lightning, or any of the other elements of Nature?

After all, they were the ones who told their kids about all the different Gods. Native Americans still teach those things in some cases.

So where did that stuff come from in the first place?

_________________
Looking for the Calm amid all this Chaos
Image
Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:49 am 
Offline
Keeper of the Calm
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:27 am
Posts: 833
Location: OZ!
Medals: 3
Co-Founder (1)

3 Year Medal (1)

1 Million Medal (1)
Knightmare wrote:
The main problem that I see when it comes to the school problem is that when they are asked why they marked something wrong when it was the correct answer...they really can't give a good reason. They just say the work wasn't done properly.

The public school system in the U.S. is similar to religion in the fact that they don't encourage free thinking.

There are times that I kinda wish I had gotten better grades in school so that I could have gone to college and gotten a degree so that I could be a teacher. I definitely would have encouraged the kids to think creatively, rather than within the strict parameters that are forced on them these days.

The U.S. wonders why it's kids are falling behind other nations, and I think a big part of it is the lack of encouragement to think around the corners of a problem.

Sorry...didn't mean to hijack the thread. :-)

* edited for spelling * Just one more reason I am not a teacher...lol


Bloody hijacker!! LOL :smt003 mate i dunno. From my observations and working in asia the "don't question it!" approach to education is HEAVILY entrenched (Well south east asia anyway). They are taught by schools (and parents) not to question authority or the approach.

To me it is (in school) the pedagogical process which needs to be reviewed. However i am sure that class size and time (constraints) are part of the issue.... just my 2 cents worth. For me i would say that open discussion and 'free thought' really only started at post graduate level (scary isn't it!).

Anyway, perhaps you guys can create a new thread for further discussion.??

_________________
Belief gets in the way of learning.

Image


Last edited by Enigma on Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:55 am 
Offline
Keeper of the Calm
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:27 am
Posts: 4995
Medals: 3
Founder (1)

3 Year Medal (1)

750k Medal (1)
I just did. Look in the General Chat forum....lol

_________________
Looking for the Calm amid all this Chaos
Image
Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Enigma...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:04 am 
Offline
Chaotic Member

Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:23 pm
Posts: 486
Location: UK
Medals: 2
3 Year Medal (1)

Honorary Medal (1)
Yes, it does seem that some very religious people are also good critical thinkers. The clergy in the C of E I believe, receive good training in the art of critical thinking at theology college. Yet I am sure most of them are very devout believers. You can be a rationalist and a believer I suppose.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


Calm Chaos Website © 2006-2014.    Use of this Website constitutes acceptance of the Calm Chaos Rules.
Powered by Chaos


Free Hit Counter